Red Bandanas on Flight 93? Another Lie Is Betrayed |
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We've never been allowed to actually hear what the passengers on any of the hijacked flights said on their cell phones on September 11, 2001. For some reason (or lack thereof) these messages have been classified and withheld from the American public. However, on the first anniversary of that horrific event, a film feature about Flight 93 was aired that dramatized the events as they are alleged to have happened. Joe Vialls watched this TV special in horror and reports: The film's opening legend claims "This dramatized reconstruction is based on air traffic control recordings and telephone conversations from passengers on United Airlines Flight 93 on September 11th 2001". So here it is at last, "hard" evidence of the "official" telephone conversations from the aircraft you were never allowed to hear on television or radio, and out-of-context chatter from a fragmented air traffic control tape that you were not supposed to be able to understand. Fortunately, due to an almost frightening lack of cultural knowledge on the part of the American propagandists who made this "Ben Hur of hate", we can use its content to finally destroy the hijacker myth for ever, and with it all of the imaginary "phone calls" from the four aircraft that day. Not only that, part two of this report also proves scientifically that the "Hijacker radio calls" from Flight 93 to Cleveland Center Air Traffic Control were deliberately forged. The first 'phone call' on the film was from Flight 93 passenger Jeremy Glick, who allegedly says, "There's three of them, Arab looking, possibly Iranian. They've got red headbands on, one of them is standing in the aisle wearing a red sash and bag round his waist. Says there's a bomb in it." The second 'phone call' was from Flight 93 air hostess Sandy Bradshaw, who allegedly says, "My aircraft has been hijacked by three guys with knives. One of them is sitting in the back row first class. They've got red bandannas on their heads and they're Islamic-looking people. We are in the back galley boiling water to throw on them". As you can see from the photos on this page, the propagandists made sure you noticed this by filming the 'reconstructed hijackers' with bright red scarves tied around their heads. As I sat there watching the stereotyped 'Muslim Terrorists' with beard stubble savagely threatening defenseless Christian men and women, and running up and down the aircraft cutting a few throats here and there with their tiny Stanley knives, my brain automatically went into overdrive. Though not a Muslim myself, more than a decade ago I spent years in various parts of the Middle East, and could not remember ever seeing a Muslim man wearing the color red during my extensive travels through the towns, villages, deserts and mountains. If the color red was not acceptable for Muslims like "Ringleader" Mohammed Atta and his colleagues, the "official" story and the "phone calls" from the aircraft would be proved a complete and blatant lie. No devout Muslim would dare mock the Prophet Mohammed or Allah [God] at the very point of martyrdom. To prove this point I obviously needed expert assistance, and contacted Islamic authority Imam Sheikh Abbas on the subject. Sheikh Abbas was most helpful, and confirmed that the teachings of the Prophet Mohammed are clear on this matter, though the Prophet's disapproval of the color red on Muslim men is shown in the Hadiths [Loosely translated as "The Prophetic Traditions"], rather than in the Koran. The actual location of the text makes no difference to devout Muslims, who follow the traditions in the Hadiths as closely as they follow the teachings of the Koran.
Red headbands? Not on faithful Muslims about to die! Other than a slightly singed passport that miraculously found its way into the hands of the FBI, copies of the Koran conveniently abandoned in trash cans by fanatic Muslims on their way to die, and these cell phone calls we have never been allowed to hear, we don't have much "proof" that Muslims were involved in the hijackings. But our covert operations specialists have had plenty of time to manufacture such evidence and still now evidence except for this amateurish attempt to dramatize the propaganda in a film about Flight 93. They would need to do a bit of research first before releasing them..like changing the color of the headbands. The Devil is truly in the details. However, Jon Smith sends this information: The famous tradition has it that once Imam Hussain and Hasan mounted on the shoulders of the Holy Prophet when they were yet small boys. Imam Hussain wore red garment, while his elder brother was in green dress. Being asked why both brothers were in different dresses, the Prophet said, "This Hasan will fight for restoring peace in religion, while Hussain will sacrifice for the cause of Islam." It ensues from this tradition that the agency of peace and sacrifice is symbolized in green and red colours in Islam. ' http://ismaili.net/Source/myflag/11significance.html Again: http://www.sudanembassychina.com/en/about.htm The meanings of the colours of the flag are as follows "The red colour symbolizes the struggle and martyrs." This would reasonably lead to a question about Joe Viall's thesis. See the full article ....."Let's Roll!" On United Flight 93, The Saddest Lie Of All About the Todd Beamer story, he did NOT speak with his wife and he reportedly did not use a cell phone. The Pittsburg Channel put it this way in a story first posted at 1.38 pm EDT on September 16, 2001: Todd Beamer placed a call on one of the Boeing 757's on-board telephones and spoke for 13 minutes with GTE operator Lisa D. Jefferson, Beamer's wife said." United Airlines Flight 93 was all over the place at extreme speed on radar, but as with Flight 77 we are asked to believe that the "hijackers" allowed a passenger to place a thirteen minute telephone call. Very considerate of them. Very convenient. Are you now so sure that Todd Beamer called his wife? Do you begin to see how the myth has taken over so many minds as though it were incontrovertible fact? Did this catch you in a myth you remember as truth. Propaganda can do that to you. Most people will be in denial about this because they cannot allow themselves to accept that they've converted facts into their own myth that is more important to them than the truth. They have become a "legend in their own mind." If you can see yourself in this dilemma, don't take too great an offense to this because you have a lot of company. Most of the USA will remember it this way. If he had used a cellphone, check out the capabilities of cellphones in fast-moving aircraft. Letter from an angry Di From: gardengrow@earthlink.net Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 8:48 PM what a wicked, evil liar you are. Those hijackers didn't give a damn about Islam. Your story about them positively not wearing red is ludicrous. This hijackers thought nothing of drinking alcohol, yet most Muslims would say a Muslim isn't supposed to do that either In any event this "F*** YOU" is for every one those evil bastards murdered. Di My reply August 15, 2003 Hi Di, Yes, those are indeed discrepancies, aren't they? I agree with you that these are very strange anomalies How do you convince those who do not accept the Koran to sacrifice their life for Allah who they don't believe in? How could they be Mujahideen without a belief in Allah and follow the teachings of the Prophet, Mohammed? Without realizing it, you put your finger on one of the many discrepancies that deserve investigation. That was my point actually. Glad you got it. Unfortunately, even the whitewash investigations so far have revealed, by their being held in secret and by their public revelations, clear weaknesses in the Bush Administration conspiracy theory. And who has been fighting against any investigation of 9-11? The Bush Administration. Why would they not wish to have a careful, public study and exposure of the truth behind 9-11? It would take resources away from the War of Terrorism, they say. Shouldn't we be sure where we are going with this before we jump in. Osama bin Laden is still at large 697 days since Bush said he'd catch him 'Dead or Alive!' Remember that we were going to be given the evidence they had for their conspiracy theory? Then, without evidence, the conspiracy theory became lodged in the national consciousness as proven. It never was. It remains a dangerous, deadly fairytale. But to point to the anomalies in the Bush Administration's conspiracy theory is not to pretend that it didn't happen, but that it did happen and we all deserve to know what exactly DID happen. Those people should not have died and they certainly deserve the simple honor of investigation into who DID actually do it? Several of the "hijackers" whose photos we have seen and whose names we tried to pronounce, have responded from the Middle East declaring that, "Look! Here I am! Why are you shaming my name? It wasn't me! I am alive!" Now that is quite a trick to slam a big plane into big buildings and live to tell about it. This makes it very difficult to accept the official story. Many of us are researching because we wish to know what exactly DID happen. Those many lives should not be in vain. But if we are looking in the wrong direction we will never discover the truth. Perhaps you are content that you have been told the truth. I am not. I find it impossible to believe that a bunch of Arabs led by a guy who lives in caves has the sophistication to convince the USAF to not intercept any of the four flights "hijacked" that day. Normal procedure would have jetfighters in the air within 20 minutes. The generals couldn't even keep their testimony straight as they changed their story, contradicted each other, and embarrassed all who would like to believe that their government and military officers were honorable men and women. So you think I am dishonoring those who died that day? I think only by bringing forward the truth about what happened that day do we honor their sacrifice. Latching onto the first explanation that comes along dishonors them. I hope you continue to be angry, but your anger is ill-spent on me. I'd hope you would use that anger, the same anger that spurred me on to search out the real truth. Use it to search out the lies we've been told and the truth that has been withheld from us. Already the lies have killed tens of thousands of people and our own troops continue to die because they, too, were lied to. Nearly half of the first Gulf War Vets are sick, dying or dead--over 200,000 men and women--because THEY were lied to, also. Now the new recruits are learning as they always do...too late. So it was in Viet Nam....too late. They can't get enough water and decent food, half of their tanks and equipment are broken down, and they can't even get their mail--civilian contractors handle supply now...one of them a subsidiary of the former company run by VP Cheney, Halliburton. Now we have the President declaring that we must fix the electric transmission grid. He was told that in June 2001 when his administration lobbied against a bill that was proposed to begin to fix it. The bill lost on a straight party line vote. What was an opportunity to fix a problem before it caused big problems was lost and now it cost loss of lives and its effects will cost billions of dollars in an economy that is already crumbling. George W. Bush was told when he took office of the dangers of terrorists hijacking commercial airliners. David Schippers, who prosecuted Clinton's impeachment, tried for months before 9-11 to get someone in the government to listen to the evidence he had that said when, where, who, and how. FBI field agents knew. CIA knew. Many foreign intelligence agencies knew. Someone knew enough to schedule a practice run of a commercial airliner crashing into the Pentagon, carried out in October 2000 in the conference room of the Secretaries of Defense in the Pentagon. After people started asking embarrassing questions they took the whole government website down. I captured a copy before they hid it from the world. Recently, Condoleeza Rice admitted that she told a friend in San Francisco not to fly on that day. That friend apparently was Mayor Willie Brown who was planning to fly east that day but cancelled his flight when reminded of the danger. How could she know but the NSC didn't? How could Bush NOT know? As he rode in the caravan to the Emma E. Booker Elementary School along with a huge staff with sophisticated equipment that can keep him in touch with what is happening anywhere in the world, how could he not know that four commercial airliners had been hijacked and one had already been crashed into the World Trade Center...before he got out of the car? And knowing that how could he continue to read stories with the children when the nation was being attacked and his job was to ensure the safety and security of the nation? And with a major airport only three miles away how could he proceed with the publicly announced photo-op when the lives of the children and teachers were threatened by his very presence? Why didn't the Secret Service sweep him away to safety as is their job, as VP Cheney described they did with him in the White House? How could he KNOW that he would not be a primary target that day? You see? When you start looking at the discrepancies in the official story there are some glaring problems in accepting it at face value. So I've grown accustomed to the F*** YOU's because that's what we've all been getting from our "leaders" for decades... On "deregulation" of the energy industry, the poor condition of our power distribution networks, taxes, budget, war, the destruction of the Constitution of the United States of America and the Bill of Rights, the desecration of the flag, the pollution of the environment, the capping of Veteran's benefits, the continued use of "depleted" uranium (that causes deformed children for many of the First Gulf War Veterans, up to 67%), murdering our own citizens and innocent civilians in Afghanistan and Iraq. And this chorus of F*** YOUs is not limited to this Republican-led government. NAFTA was a F*** YOU to workers, employees and the air, water and environment. Oklahoma City, Waco and Ruby Ridge happened in the Clinton Administration. And the F*** YOUs of Iran-Contra, the CIA involvement in bringing crack into this country, the murder of innocent civilians in Panama, Grenada, Angola, El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras, Nicaragua..... the list goes on and on. So yours is a rather modest F*** YOU that seems to suggest an agitation and fury at being so repeatedly beaten up and not knowing who is doing it to you. It's not me. I'm just asking questions and discovering lies. You can do what you wish with it....keep on getting conned and lied to or stand up and demand accountability and investigation. Thanks for your thoughts. I'll be entering it onto the Web as part of the discussion and inquiry into the lies of the New World Order. Email me again when you've had a bit of time to discover more of the truth. You've made a good, if misplaced start. AAH Another email from Jon Smith: jon & Gi Smith Yes, I can believe it. I work in the Mddle East and I have seen locals wearing red bandanas and also riding Harleys. Yes, and drinking and chasing hookers. Spend a bit of time in a Muslim country and open your eyes instead of coming out with that rubbish! regards I replied: Perhaps you didn't notice that this was written by Joe Vialls who has spent considerable time in Muslim countries. Also, the issue is not whether people in Muslim countries ever wear red or behave like Westerners. It's whether devout Muslims, mujahidin, would do so in their death act that would deliver them to Paradise. So go to the mosque and look for red. Then ask mujahidin planning a suicide attack if they would wear red and behave like the Great Satan. I'd like to know. jon smith
Oh Joe Vialls!!! Ha ha! Well it MUST be true musn't it. Do all you conspiracy theorists copy each others crackpot theories around and around??? 'In a fairly extensive Google search, one finds innumerable reference to Mr. Vialls, most of which are copyrighted works by him. Other mentions can be grouped under the category "fawning and fatuous," and are little more than uncritical references to Joe Vialls as an expert on everything from aeronautics and conspiracy theories to cancer and vitamins.
Which of these descriptions is accurate must be left to other interested parties to decide. '' 'Yes WHO is Joe? Ever met him? Does he exist? One theory is that only the pilots knew they were going to crash the planes so the others wouldn't know they were going to Paradise. They tohugh tit wa s an 'ordinary' hbijacking. That explains many of their comments to the passengers. Many of them weren't particularly devout Muslims either. Many of the locals headgear is a red check pattern so red is pretty easy to see in the mosque! Have you EVER been to a Muslim country? So go to a mosque and look for red - you might find it. What disturbs me is that weak minded individuals might actually believe the rubbish on your web site. regards I replied, then Jon replied, and I replied to him, his second email, and my second reply. I certainly hope that weak-minded individuals not believe rubbish. Heaven knows, there's quite a lot of that around. No shortage on your website! Would you be specific or are you only interested in trash talk? So I give a lot of attention to what I write or include here. First it is essential to look at conspiracy theory #1: Muslim terrorists well-trained in navigation and control of commercial airliners in American flight schools and on various USAF simulators hijacked four "heavy" aircraft within about an hour of each other and without interception by the USAF and expertly flew them and slammed them and their passengers into the World Trade Center, the Pentagon and a field in PA. Do you believe this conspiracy theory? Yes. I believe the facts not your conspiracy theory. I didn't mention MY conspiracy theory. Do you believe the Bush Conspiracy Theory is facts? By the way three of the pilots were FAA certified commercial pilots, including Hani Hanjour, the Pentagon pilot (who all the conspiracy websites say could not fly). I am not sure about the fourth. Who are the pilots who were certified commercial pilots? Mohammed Atta (Flight 11) Still alive by some reports Hani Hanjour (Flight 77) Marwan al-Shehhi (Flight 175) Still alive in Morocco Ziad Jarrah (Flight 93) Single engined planes only - and the only one not to reach its destination How do you disregard the report of the failure of Hani Hanjour to be able to fly a Cessna well enough to be able to rent one? Because its made by people like you who only know or who only know half the facts. I suggest you don't get on a passenger plane again as they are flown by FAA certified commercial pilots too who obviously can't fly! The facts you have missed is that the report was made by flight instructors. See report: http://www.newsday.com/ny-usflight232380680sep23.story Is it only that it is inconvenient to your conspiracy theory that claims that he expertly maneuvered (SP) a heavy in a manner that commercial pilots marvel at, maneuvers that are not permitted by the navigational computers onboard? It's not my conspiracy theory. It fails on too many counts. The whole idea of red bandanas or green is really quite moot since there is no evidence that this information was ever communicated from the aircraft. Cellphones don't function at altitudes above 5,000 feet or low altitude speeds of 450 mph Yes they do. Who says they don't? Professor K.A Dewdney in a series of carefully controlled experiments. See /9-11_cell_phone_hoax.htm Not good old Joe again? Most pilots seem to think they work and even quote instances. Look at some of the pilots chat pages. Oh, of course you already have because you have 'researched' everything so thoroughly. Your snide comments don't portray an open mind that can search for truth without reservation. I'm not interested in a contentious conversation with such a vacuum of honesty. I hope this is just a careless slip on your part. The 'Prof' ( Kee Dewdney, Professor of Why did a British court in 1999 send this man to jail for using his mobile phone at 31,000 feet then? Of course - part of the 'conspiracy' planning! They sent him to jail for REFUSING to give up his mobile (cell) phone because it could interfere with electronics in the aircraft, not because it could be used effectively. http://www.interesting-people.org/archives/interesting-people/199907/msg00036.html Although Whitehouse made no airborne calls, aviation experts told a three-day trial that radio waves from the phone could have sparked an explosion or affected the Boeing 737's navigational systems as it flew at 31,000 feet. "The scientific evidence showed that there was a real possibility of risk. Article does not make the point. http://www.mobile-review.com/articles/2002/plane-en.shtml This article did not address cellphone effectiveness, just extent of hazard. Anecdotal: http://www.planeinsanity.com/column2001_07.html This article did not address cellphone effectiveness, just extent of hazard. ATT and Verizon: http://www.wirelessreview.com/ar/wireless_final_contact_2 Experts interviewed were surprised that any calls from altitude could have gotten through, in part because the receivers are not oriented vertically but horizontally. Provides no data about cellphone effectiveness at altitude or speed. and the use of the phones in the aircraft, punching in the credit card information and speaking on them surely would be noticed by one of the "terrorists," wouldn't it? Maybe but there were only 4/5 of them on a 767/757 . I don't see how they could keep an eye on everybody at the same time, at least one of them and maybe two were in the cockpit and the would have been a little err 'busy' cutting throats etc at some stage If only 2 or 3 of the alleged "hijackers" were available in the passenger compartment, it doesn't take much to keep watch over a small number of people who could be gathered together into the center seats. 'Could' being the operative word. That is your hypothesis. I'm just trying to work with the hypothesis YOU have adopted so uncritically. All of the flights were only at 25-30% capacity. Right. Which is why they were picked. Who gave you the criteria for choosing the flights? Did you have phone conversations with "the terrorists?" Once again, speculation has supplanted real evidence. Having allegedly cut throats, the alleged "hijackers" would have intimidated most to not do anything out of line. Would they? One of the hijacked passengers was an Israeli intelligence agent. Ahh.... another Zionist conspiracy. Must be YOUR conspiracy theory or Joseph Farrah's. http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=26676 But then, nine of the 19 alleged hijackers are still alive and well, we had no coroner's report to substantiate "slitting of throats,' Bit difficult to find a body complete when they have hit something at 400 mph I would have thought. Yes, of course. Nevertheless, NO EVIDENCE to substantiate the assertion! the alleged cellphone or onboard calls cannot be made at that altitude or speed. Wrong. See above. Referencing insubstantial and unrelated evidence. So how do you know all this about the "hijacking" unless you have heard it asserted by the Bush Administration? So all the media in the US (including foreign correspondents) are in the employ of the Bush administration??? No, just in the employ of the same folks who have bought both political parties. JP Morgan began buying influence on major newspapers in 1907. Perhaps you have heard of the CIA Project Mockingbird? See /Politics%20and%20History/CIA-Media-Manipulation.htm An interesting one from the archives...... http://politics.guardian.co.uk/archive/article/0,,4296646,00.html Unrelated to the discussion, but nevertheless seems to be an early plant of the suggested Iraqi--September 11 connection that has now been thoroughly by the intelligence services. Mush ado about nothing. Serves only to discredit you, jon. Facts are in short supply to support their assertions. And embarrassing facts contradict their assertions. Or that there were even Muslim hijackers on the plane. There were no surveillance cameras that showed the alleged hijackers boarding, Are there video cameras that record this in US airports? I thought security was poor.That's the propaganda you were supposed to swallow comfortably. ??? Logan airport had NO security cameras (again probably why they chose it). That is a fact, not propaganda. But Newark and Dulles did. Remember that "they" is an artifact of the Official Conspiracy Theory that has not been substantiated by hard evidence. We were promised that hard evidence two years ago. Aren't you wondering why we have never been shown that evidence? Aren't you wondering why the Bush Administration has been striving so mightily to avoid a full public disclosure of the events of September 11? What you think is irrelevant. What you know is relevant. There is one video showing them passing through a security checkpoint. If one surveillance camera was functioning, why not a host of them. And why was that surveillance camera working in the small commuter airport in VT or NH but not at all of the major international airports from which flights 11, 175, 77 and 93 departed? Logan airport in any case had no security cameras in its departure lounges. Cameras do not always record everything in any case; sometimes they are purely for surveillance. In the old days data storage was a problem. I know. In the old days a computer such as I am using would take up an entire building and require huge air-conditioners to keep it cool enough to work. You know how cheap video cassettes are. What is the problem? I have designed systems. They may be designed to start recording if there is something unusual, like someone trying to go into a restricted area or if there is some sudden unusual movement by people. Convenience stores keep video recordings, why not the airports, even if for only a few weeks? One or two cameras. There are 120 departure lounges at Dulles. Let's see, at 2 cameras per lounge (I'm sure they would need more) that's 240 cameras. At say 12 hours to a tape that's 480 tapes a day. That's 3360 a week!!! Data storage of mulitmedia is still a problem. Look at a VCD. One hour of low quality video is about 650MB. There is not too much on airport CCTV systems on the internet, for obvious reasons. Interestingly I found this. http://securitysolutions.com/ar/security_digital_answer_dayton/index.htm Odds on that is the system that was in use there. After 12 hours the video footage is discarded apart from 'key' occurences. I wonder if somebody at Dulles in all that confusion that day overrode the automatic 12 hour delete? Probably not.... so it was lost....Once again, the evidence for the presence of "Arab hijackers" does not exist. there were no Arabic names at all on the passenger manifest, Oh yes there were!!!!! How can you make such statements??? Then provide me with the passenger list not glib comments. You win no arguments with me through epithets and innuendo. Tell it straight or go bother someone else with bluster. I have. See below http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_11,_2001_Terrorist_Attack/Plane_casualties http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_396313.html?menu=news.latestheadlines Thanks for the links. I had only seen the CNN manifest. Of course, we still have a problem using this as evidence because, as this source acknowledges, several (9) of the alleged hijackers are reported alive and well. This source acknowledges that identities were apparently stolen. So we are back at not knowing WHO these people really were, whether they were al-Qaeda or Mossad, or whether they were even Arabic. It also demonstrates that the FBI information is not conclusive since they identified at least 7-9 people among the dead that are still alive. Not a problem if people aren't paying attention, though. How were they picked out by CAPS if they weren't on the passenger manifests??? Who are "they?" Apparently "they" weren't really there since at least 7-9 of "them" are alive. (And that's Computer-Assisted Passenger Profiling System, or CAPPS.) And although CAPPS spotted something odd about "them" it was not pursued by security personnel. No one was personally interrogated. Therefore, there is NO evidence that the alleged "hijackers" were present. http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=27362 http://www.sltrib.com/2003/Oct/10092003/nation_w/100199.asp Notice in the Salt Lake Tribune how they fail to use the qualifier, "alleged." Instead they use the word, "terrorist," promulgated by the Official Conspiracy Theory as though it were proven fact. One of the oldest tricks of propaganda is to speak of a questionable fact as though it were incontrovertible evidence, use it repeatedly until it sticks in the mind of the public as a well-known and reliably established fact. Lie big and lie often and you will be taken for an astute and knowledgeable man. The dummies won't know they've been had. Adolf Hitler said it this way, "What good fortune for those in power that the people do not think," and "It also gives us a very special, secret pleasure to see how unaware the people around us are of what is really happening to them." Since George W. Bush's grandfather was managing the Union Bank that was funneling money to support the NAZI rise to power, it would be a real possibility that he, too, is laughing at the stupidity of the American people. Ah another cut n' paste from an article by 'Reverend' Thomas R. Olmsted Who's that? Are you referring to Thomas R. Olmsted, MD? You're starting to demonstrate that you don't get your facts straight and thus not a qualified participant in a conversation with anyone who wishes to distinguish truth from fiction. It was a pun on his claim to be a 'Christian'. If he was he wouldn't spread lies. Incidentally he can't be an 'MD' with a Lousiana licence. "Doctor" Olmstead is also not listed in the New Orleans area yellow pages under "psychiatrists". Check it put. Oh, I forgot, you already have researched everything thoroughly. If Free Republic is your idea of research, school is in session. It would be necessary for the researcher to be able to spell to find Olmsted not Olmstead and several of these listings in the New Orleans Yellow Pages are group practices. You'd have to call each of them to be certain of there not being a Thomas R. Olmsted, MD in private practice in the New Orleans area. How that is significant is not immediately clear since he was only observing missing evidence in the autopsy report. And all he was looking for was the "hijacker's" names not the tissue samples. they could not use aliases because the Bush conspiracy theory claims that they used their own credit cards (and this is checked by flight attendants as passengers board as well as at the boarding gate and ticketing counter), there were no hijacker's names in the Pentagon crash Yes there were! See this web link. I know who I believe. http://bit.ch/217.php#top As careful as "someone" has been in arguing this case their argument fails simply because those 5 alleged terrorists were not identified by DNA matching. If there were such evidence, it would be simple enough for the government to leak it or come out forthrightly and tell us. That it is hidden in secrecy because it is an ongoing investigation is an old ploy to avoid telling the truth. The argument sends up a lot of misdirection to avoid looking at the simple fact that the hijackers were not identified by DNA matching or that this information was withheld from the public. Two of the hijackers from the WTC were identified by DNA. The relatives of the hijackers have not provided samples of their DNA. If you knew anything about KSA and police states you would know why not as well. So the information was revealed in NY but withheld in Wash. DC? You must realize that you have just created still another inexplicable anomaly, an internal contradiction that sets the circular reasoning into still another spin around on the tutti-fruiti choo-choo. Why would the authorities release information in New York that they would not release in Wash. DC? Any idea how they got tissue samples of ANY of the alleged "hijackers?" Especially, since they now admit that there have been stolen identities involved and several of those implicated in a suicide attack are alive and well, complaining of their names being slandered? You've also used an old debating trick of sidetracking the discussion into unrelated, emotionally charged argumentation. That might work with some folks. It is obvious, however, that lacking real evidence you are throwing up misdirection and camouflage. And you carefully avoided addressing the problem of finding human tissue following a fire that allegedly burned so hot that it vaporized even most of the metal parts of the aircraft including the engines. Since metal had been vaporized, isn't it a bit silly to suppose that human tissue would survive such intense temperatures as are claimed? This is another of the mutually contradictory arguments that self-destruct if you watch it evolve objectively. even though the government claimed all but one of the victims had been identified by DNA-matching No, not the government but the below people/ institutions did. You are insisting that the Air Force and "Armed Forces" are not government? You don't see yet the extent to which all facets of our society have been penetrated and co-opted. That just shows the depths of your paranoia. Or the depths of your naiveté'. (Bush conspiracy theory claims that after a 160 ton aircraft is evaporated by the intensity of the fire generated from kerosene, human tissue can still be found for laboratory analysis) So all the pathologists at Dover Air Force Base morticians and the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology and Michael Bell, vice president of the National Association of Medical Examiners and the deputy chief examiner for Broward County, Fla. are all liars who have 'invented' this. As is this man: http://www.pittsburghlive.com:8000/x/tribune-review/terrorism/oneyearlater/ptr/s_90228.html Unrelated to the discussion. Just pap to eat up my time. Had no evidence or support of evidence. There weren't even any lies. Have you ever faced anything like that in your life? have you ever woken up in the night sweating with flashbacks? Oh, sorry these are all liars in the pay of the 'Bush Government. You don't seem to understand that it is not a Bush government. He's just a puppet, an agent who takes orders like those before him. You are still sitting in the audience with the children. Now it's time to get up and look behind the curtain. yet none of the names of the hijackers showed up on the coroner's report. Is this the conspiracy theory you prefer to accept? See above.You choose not too [sp] accept the FACTS. What facts? The autopsies were all done and none of the alleged "Arab hijackers" showed up. Who needs to be lying? Who needs to be covering up? Search me. So many governments are involved in this I'm getting lost. Yes, of course you are. Answering to ALL the facts or the lack thereof can require quite a bit of attention and determination to remain free and sovereign in a nation rapidly plunging into darkness not seen since Stalin or Hitler. Discovering you were misled in the midst of a reign of terror is a bit too late to do anything about it. We could say that Paul Revere and his buddies were a bit paranoid except from our position looking back, they were probably just on top of things. That's what it takes to be free. There simply was no evidence to report concerning the "hijackers." You've made a huff an puff out of nothing wasting your time and mine. It nevertheless is a useful display of circular reasoning. You've spun your wheels around the entire circle and come back to the beginning where you began. There was no evidence that Khalid Al-Midhar, Majed Moqed, Nawaq Alhamzi, Salem Alhamzi, and Hani Hanjour were on Flight 77. In fact, evidence casts doubts that Khalid Al-Midhar and Salem Alhamzi could have been involved because they are still alive and well. They bought tickets and checked in. And they were on the passenger manifests. Some of them were picked up by CAPPS. Not much evidence anybody was on the plane then. But WHO ARE THEY? They bought tickets but they used stolen identities, their borrowed names were on the passenger manifest, their profile was noticed by CAPPS but no one interrogated them or even looked at them. WHO ARE THEY? The notorious photographs of "the Arab hijackers" prove absolutely nothing since we already know and the FBI has acknowledged that identities were apparently stolen. Where does that leave the Official Conspiracy Theory? Still no evidence of "Arab hijackers." Nada! As for red vs green bandanas, just find for me photos of mujahidin wearing red. I'm not talking Palestinians or ordinary Muslims. Mujahidin. And show me that the Muslim texts, the Hadis, mentioned in the article by Vialls do not say that Mohammed told his followers to never wear red. I'm easy. If it's not true I would remove the story from my website immediately. I have made changes whenever I found new evidence that something was not true. I beleive {sp} that you mean the 'Hadiths'. (Joe's spelling I know - funny after all those years in Muslim vountiers [sp?] he can't spell it). The Koran is the sacred book. The Hadiths are not accepted by all Islamic scholars and there are arguments about their veracity and interpretation. Sometimes people have the information verbally and the "th" might not be heard well, especially if the conversation is by phone. So this is your argument against the interpretation of the Hadiths? He spelled it wrong? I should perhaps use the same technique on you. Since you apparently mistyped the word, "countries" and "belief" I must assume that you are illiterate in that sentence or paragraph and it should signal a certain level of illiteracy or at least unfamiliarity with any of the associated thoughts. You see how it works? Not at all. I typed that in haste. If I am preparing material for a Client its spellchecked and proof read thoroughly. Or if I was publishing an article on the web it would be. You don't see how small mistakes can be mistaken for illiteracy and ignorance? Or clumsiness of mind or carelessness in investigation? Joe Vialls apparently had a telephone conversation with someone with a different accent than his, perhaps on the other side of the world, mis-hears a diphthong and you make a case for his carelessness and therefore dismiss the information. I simply applied the same criticism to you. If you didn't notice it, then I suppose you don't understand anything then, do you? Or you do and you're too proud to admit it didn't feel fair. 'A minority among the Muslims do not accept the various books of Hadith as being an accurate representation of what the prophet Muhammed said. They take the Koran as Criterion (Furqaan in Arabic), according to the Koran's own claim (2:185), accepting only those hadith [tradition or narration attributed to the prophet] which the Koran confirms and attests in totality. I represent that view in this paper. ' http://www.19.org/english/articles/asadi2.htm I found this in a quick internet 5 minute search. Obviously neither you or Joe have bothered to check your 'facts'. Your facts are interesting and nearly satisfying. What you have missed in your 5 minute search is that the mujahidin have been trained in the Wahhabi sect, not the Sunni or Shi'a. There are differences within Islam as great as between Catholics and Protestants. The references should be from the Wahhabi sect, not the more prevalent Sunni or Shi'a. Wrong. You still might have found a useful piece of information but it is not clearly associated with Wahhabe. (sp) Wrong I am nearly convinced that Joe Vialls might not be correct in this issue. But the book is not yet closed on this research. What you have missed is that Sunni and Shia go back to the start of Islam. The Wahhabi sect started in the 18th century. Wahhabis are Sunnis and in fact Shias (who are a minority in KSA) are very much discriminated against. I thought you would have known this so I didn't mention it. I do know this and have been very aware of it since the Iranian Revolution in '79. There are a lot of Sunnis who do not accept the harsh dogma as they interpret it from the Quran and other Islamic texts. http://atheism.about.com/library/FAQs/islam/blfaq_islam_wahhab.htm I happen to know this but again a quick internet search would have put you in touch with the facts. 'Ibn Athir (2nd vol., p. 83) writes that when the Prophet handed over his green banner to Ali bin Abu Talib during the battle of Khaibar, he proceeded towards the fort. On that occasion, Ali had worn a red sheet on his body. The famous tradition has it that once Imam Hussain and Hasan mounted on the shoulders of the Holy Prophet when they were yet small boys. Imam Hussain wore red garment, while his elder brother was in green dress. Being asked why both brothers were in different dresses, the Prophet said, "This Hasan will fight for restoring peace in religion, while Hussain will sacrifice for the cause of Islam." It ensues from this tradition that the agency of peace and sacrifice is symbolized in green and red colours in Islam. ' http://ismaili.net/Source/myflag/11significance.html Again: http://www.sudanembassychina.com/en/about.htm The meanings of the colours of the flag are as follows: · The red colour symbolizes the struggle and martyrs. Seems to me they would be wearing red. I also found an ad for some rather cheeky red prayer mats- just the thing for taking to the mosque. Since I have found nothing true about the Bush Administration so far, the evidence seems to weigh heavily against them. Aluminum tubes weren't for centrifuges, Nigeria could not and did not negotiate with Iraqis for yellowcake, Didn't they??? ' What went wrong was that the documentary evidence - handed to Bush by Italian prime minister Silvio Berlusconi in confidence, had been doctored by anti-American, anti-war factions in Italian intelligence in such a way that it would be discovered and appear to be fabricated. They plotted to bring the three war leaders into disrepute by manipulating them into committing an untruth while also souring the warm relations between the Italian prime minister and the White House. The identities of the Italian intelligence plotters were at the center of the two days of private talks held by Bush and Berlusconi at the presidential ranch in Crawford, Texas July 20 and 21. The Italian prime minister brought with him the results of a private investigation. Intelligence sources reveal that the agents who falsified the intelligence documents were also involved in staging the mass anti-war demonstrations that swept across Europe ahead of the American invasion of Iraq and accompanied the UN Security Council war debate. They worked with accomplices in Russian, British, French, Dutch and German intelligence and allies in Africa in an anti-coalition front.' http://debka.com/article.php?aid=533 Very extensive information, Jon. Still, Cheney had Wilson sent to Africa to check it out, he reported back that it was spurious intelligence. DCIA Tenet rejected the yellowcake allegation in Bush's Cincinnati speech, Powell questioned it for the UN speech, all intelligence agencies were rejecting it, the IAEA rejected it as an obvious forgery. Regardless of who gave it to him or how the story was obtained, it was pounded and hammered by the professionals and yet it was kept alive by the Zionistas who wanted to support the plan for Project Shekinah for a Greater Israel from Euphrates to the Nile and oil flowing into Haifa. No excuses accepted. there are no WMD to the extent claimed, There are. They are in Syria and Lebanon. I'll reply to that seperately. See:! http://debka.com/article.php?aid=482 Haven't caught on yet have you? "It's Afghanistan! No it's Iraq! No, now it's Syria.errr.Iran!" You're being led around on a Zionist leash and when the master says there, you run there and bark, then he shouts there and you run there and bark. It is quite entertaining for the master to watch his goy pets jumping to his command. You probably haven't studied much about the Illuminati, the Jesuits, and the Zionists because those are dark regions to explore. What you would find would leave you less than comfortable with your conservative platitudes and assurances that you are fighting a good fight against those silly liberals. And those silly liberals are, like dogs on a leash, being led around and their liberal leaders are shouting "There!" and the liberal puppies run there and bark. And they bark at the conservative puppies and the conservative puppies growl at the liberal puppies, each one believing that they are doing their duty, growling and barking. It's all quite noisy and the chaos allows the masters to loot, rape and murder at will. It should be interesting to see if this follows the felonious Weekly Standard release of the Intelligence statements from Douglas Feith, the Zionist traitor doing the bidding of the Zionist State. Why? Because it doesn't fit in with your conspiracy theory??? What about the 'felonius lies' of the Iraqi defectors? Perhaps you should tell me what my conspiracy theory is since I haven't mentioned one yet. You seem to imagine one even though I am focused on the Official Conspiracy Theory! And I am speaking of an actual felony of releasing classified intelligence information as Doug Feith did and as Richard Novak wrote about regarding "senior Administration officials." These breaches of National Security are felonies. Those Iraqi defectors probably DID lie, but those were not felonies. The willingness of the Zionistas to use their lies might border on treason, especially since it brought about a huge loss of American lives, placed our troops in harms way for spurious purposes, and cost billions of dollars from the US Treasury. This plays into the hands of the Illuminist and Zionist agenda to weaken the US economically and militarily so that the foreign troops on our soil can be utilized once martial law is declared after the next fake terrorist attack. But you can't see the outlines of the future plans because you haven't studied the patterns of history. the torture and murder of Iraqis by coalition forces exceeds that of Saddam, You talk to some real live Iraqis before you make such statements! I get reports from many sources including Iraqis about what is happening in Iraq. I don't believe you know any real life Iraqis. Your sources I have already found to be very 'dodgy'. Try this for size: Today, when I was going to the clinic, I've seen a guy, he is tall,
with a black hair, cute face, but he has sad facial expressions. There
was something that has attracted me.., This happens in the US? Seen anybody with his ear missing at your local clinic? By the way, I know this to be true as an Iraqi friend told me exactly the same thing years ago. These people know hat it mean to suffer. You know NOTHING. You should be glad for the freedoms you have instead of cooking up phony conspiracy theories about your government and trying to undermine it. Nobody is pulling your tongue out are they? Joseph Padilla has been in the hold of a naval ship for nearly two years. He is an American citizen but his right to a lawyer, habeas corpus, and due process has been taken away. The NTSB has declared that Paul Wellstone's plane was going too slow so instead of plummeting to the ground as happens in a stall, it veered off and flew almost two miles before it crashed. The FBI arrived on the scene in about half an hour even though they had driven in a car up I-35 from Minneapolis 156 miles away. Alisha Owens served several years in prison because a third Federal Grand Jury found her description of sexual abuse by illustrious men of Omaha when she was a minor was perjured testimony even though other children confirmed the testimony. Cathy O'Brien was a Monarch sex slave of Dick Cheney and endured his terror, games and sexual play when she was a child. Gary Caradori's plane was blown out of the sky by a bomb that scattered papers over more than a mile as well as body parts of him and his 8-year old son, AJ. The CIA used crack to disable an entire neighborhood of LA so that real estate investors could sweep in and scoop up cheap properties. When Paul Bonnacci was about 11, he was a boy prostitute for the homosexual ring run by Larry King, the director of the Franklin Savings and Loan of Omaha, Nebraska. He was at parties in Washington DC where politicians and diplomats at the highest level of both parties were offered children for sexual favors. According to court records, the FBI was in command of building the bomb that damaged the WTC in 1993 and had the option of reducing the impact of the charge or rendering it harmless. They chose to proceed with a full and effective charge and Americans were killed and injured.... And you call yourself an American! Who are you to talk about being an American. You admit that you are not an American and wouldn't wish to be one! A real American understands that he or she stands ABOVE the country as a sovereign and is not a sniveling knee-jerk follower of the party line. It's false patriots who wrap themselves in the flag who are the true traitors degrading the sovereignty identified by the Declaration of Independence and protected in the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. I suggest if you really think that you give up your US citizenship as a protest. No true patriot following in the steps of the founding fathers would thirst for US citizenship which requires giving up individual sovereignty to obtain the protection of the Federal Government as a feudal subject. I am a citizen of the state in which I was born and the state in which I reside and of the several states united. There is a difference you should attend to. Go and work in Iraq for an NGO and try to do some good instead of spreading slanderous and untrue comments. .You have not proven that they are slanderous or untrue. I'm doing far more dangerous work right here in the USA helping true patriots hold onto their Constitutional Republic in the face of horrifying odds. the primary interest in stopping the spread of WMD to terrorists took last place in the priorities of the occupation, ??? Which were???? OIL Yes, when a civil war erupts in KSA and 1/3 of the West's oil supplies disappear we will ALL need the Iraqi oil .Glad that you agree with me. And who has been the cause of the civil wars, wars, coup d'etat and revolutions for the past century? The US, UK, France, Illuminati, Zionists, and Jesuits. Oh yes, and you Americans use too much of it. I assume you have small compact car or a bicycle. Put prices up to UK levels and your oil problems will disappear overnight. I have the use of a friend's 1997 Ford Taurus for getting to the PO to mail our deliveries and bank to make deposits. Otherwise, I don't commute, I don't drive somewhere unless I have no other choice, when in Europe for 3 years, I walked or took the bus, subway or trolley. I cut and split wood for the stove, grow much of my own food, recycle whatever I can, reuse boxes for shipments, etc. and so on and on. But then, if the administration would be Clinton's or Reagan's or Carter's, I'd still be finding the same lying, but thanks to our appointed resident of the White House and his Zionistas we would still have our heads in the sand or in the clouds. 9/11 was truly a wake up call. Not everybody woke up, though. There is much more to do. Zionista! Got you. You are anti-semetic. I'll bet you have the Turner dairies on your bedside table. Your motivation is to GET me? Tsk. I'll have to assume that you meant "diaries." Turner who? And the word, you presumably meant is "anti-Semitic." You'll need to do more study to understand the difference between Zionism and Judaism. You have them comfortably mixed as the propagandists intended you would. Many Jews know the difference. Many of the orthodox Jews in Israel protest against the entire philosophy of Zionism as antithetical to the fundamentals of Judaism. You might not know of "Tikkun." "I want to tell you something very clear, don't worry about American pressure on Israel, we, the Jewish people control America, and the Americans know it." -- Ariel Sharon to Shimon Peres, October 3rd, 2001, as reported on Kol Yisrael radio. You need to leave the US and go and live in a police state. I notice you did not answer my question as to if you have ever been to a Muslim country. I'll put money on it you haven't. Still NO answer!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ???? Why must I? Communications are quite advanced these days. I developed a garden program in the Minneapolis inner city on the property of a Masjid back in 1990. We are already in a police state and your inflammatory discourse proves the extent to which the public has been deceived by the propaganda of more than a century. ?? A lot of conspiracies! All the same ones??? Yes, all the same one if you only knew how and where to look. Already hundreds of American citizens have had their Constitutional rights abrogated and your sense of patriotism proclaims that that is quite all right with you. In such a case you seem to support the police state and abhor the Constitution and Bill of Rights. I am not a US citizen! (nor do I want to be one). Thanks for the compliment though. I wouldn't consider it a compliment, though. My people have endured hundreds of years of murder, theft and genocide at the hands of immoral, criminal EuroAmericans. Europeans have been deeper into a police state than the US until the last decade and have been compromised even longer than the Americans. Would you take a look at the rest of the evidence on The Seventh Fire to see if I made any other mistakes that I should correct? If you make such elementary mistakes as this - which a 5 minute internet search can disprove - by quoting a totally discredited individual - then I am sure there are other equally obvious discrepancies in the rest of your site. No, I have better things to do. Your assignment is incomplete. So far I cannot give you a passing grade. Too bad. .But I'll keep the grade book open to allow completion. But I thank you for the information posted above. Can you please show me how Muslim terrorists got the USAF to remain grounded while "hijacked aircraft" flew directly over them? You had better ask the Canadian who was head of NORAD. Ah, yes, the Canadians were in on the 'Bush' conspiracy. After all they had soooo much to gain didn't they?? The Canadians quickly passed their own version of the USA PATRIOT Act. Yes the Canadians, Mossad, British, MI5 and MI6, the Germans, etc. So the US, Canadian, Israeli, German and British Governments are all in on this 'conspiracy'. This is getting pretty complicated! The German wanted a war with Iraq so they couldn't take part and couldn't participate in the reconstruction! I understand now. When the problem gets too big for you to grasp it, you prefer to not notice and maybe the monsters will go away? Perhaps you will just whistle. You understand nothing and have no apparent capacity or interest to do so. You are near-sighted mouse thinking he is aware of everything, but it just a mouthful for the stealthy cat. You just have no idea how long this open conspiracy has been going on, do you? Or how widespread it is? Or how deeply it has penetrated into our society? Pity that you will learn too late. If you can get past your self-assured false confidence in what you call the truth, you can discover how they have obtained rights to your home, car, children, dog, boat. You might discover how you've been tricked by a Donald Duck cartoon to "pay your taxes," tricked into funding your own credit card and then paying interest on it besides while the bank earns nearly ten times your credit limit by monetizing YOUR credit. You stand in moral outrage defending a system that is taking every thing you ever thought you owned. Do you own your car? No, the state does. Surely its the bank if it's on HP? Try a communist system then where you own 'nothing'. In the system in which you participate, you might have the privilege of possession but not the right of ownership. If you pay license fees, you only have privilege of possession and use. Are your children yours? No, they belong to the state because you obtained a LICENSE from the state for permission to marry and all issue from that marriage just like a feudal lord. You have been deluded and lied to from all directions and, as suggested by General Tommy Franks, the next terrorist attack will be WMD and will end the Constitutional Republic. Whose WMD? The same folks who allowed four commercial aircraft to fly into restricted airspace and kill nearly 3,000 people. Kind of hard to do that from a cave in Afghanistan. Or anywhere unless you have inside contacts. Actually it was planned in Hamburg and the UAE, not Afghanistan. You seem quite confident that you know much that is still unproven and unsubstaniated. It must be easier to obtain absolute assurance that the USAF will not rise to the occasion when the planning is done in Hamburg and UAE. What possible difference would that make. Because of the USAF remaining inexplicably on the ground while four heavy aircraft were off course and heading for restricted airspace, 9/11 was obviously an inside job. Could you demonstrate how the "hijackers" could have escaped notice of surveillance cameras? See above. Above you demonstrated nothing in this regard, just speculation. Just as is your 'theory'. I didn't present a theory, just research, facts and analysis of the facts. I am EXAMINING the Official Conspiracy Theory with fact, analysis, logic, and laws of physics. Could you find another Muslim scholar who can contradict Imam Sheikh Abbas' interpretation of the Hadis? I'm sure I could. First I have to find who Sheikh Abbas is. Joe does not quote the source (as usual - he probably has made it up again). An internet search only throws up web sites from similar conspiracy theorists all repeating the same inaccurate nonsense. Islam does not speak with one voice.Their [sic] is also the dichotomy between Sunnis and Shias. Shias will NOT accept what Sunni clerics say and vice-versa. They will fight to the death. You left out Wahhabi. Nothing is as damaging to an analysis of an official conspiracy theory as a flaw of fact or reasoning. Uhh?? Don't you mean YOUR conspiracy thoery???? Oh? What conspiracy theory is that? Did you read that on my site somewhere? Most of the research and discussion about 9/11 disprove the Official Conspiracy Theory. Some have posited alternatives, but largely what appears here is an examination of the facts, laws of physics, and research evidence and how they fit or do not fit with the explanation offered from "Official Sources." To refresh your memory, here is the Conspiracy Theory we have been discussing. No, here are the facts we have been discussing. We have been discussing YOUR conspiracy theory. Please point to the paragraph in which I outlined MY theory. I can't find it anywhere. My theory would have to do without "Arab terrorists" because I can find no evidence that they existed but for the unsubstantiated allegations made by officials of the Bush Administration. But we've been discussing Arab terrorists alleged by the Official Conspiracy Theory, not by me. Pointing toward a non-existent conspiracy theory is misdirection and obfuscation, two common debating tricks that do not serve the resolution. conspiracy theory #1: Muslim terrorists well-trained in navigation and control of commercial airliners in American flight schools - three of whom had got FAA commercial pilots licences - the next step is to get a job with an airline- Please show proof that three of the alleged hijackers had FAA commercial pilot's licenses. Other, that is, than those who are still alive and flying. and on various USAF simulators ?? whoever said that???? I'll have to go back into the files to locate the source of this information. Later. hijacked four "heavy" aircraft within about an hour of each other and without interception by the USAF and expertly flew them and slammed them and their passengers into the World Trade Center, the Pentagon and a field in PA. That's the only conspiracy theory I must contend with. Bush lied. Many others lied. Sounds like almost everyone in the US lied, and you are the ONLY one who tells the truth.... oh yes... courtesy of Joe and 'Dr.' Olmsted. You have a very small world if you can only find me telling the truth. And it seems as though your fear of the truth manifests in snide, rude, and crude dismissal of what is becoming very obvious to all but those emotionally trapped in the Establishment mentality and programming. A grand old man of the Grand Old Party once said, "you may fool all of the people some of the time; you can even fool some of the people all of the time; but you can't fool all of the people all of the time." You can struggle as much as you like, but the facts of the case and the laws of logic and physics are pretty strong evidence that you've been lied to. ??? no they aren't!!!! They aren't evidence if you cannot or will not examine them objectively. This is in question because of your insistence that we have been discussing MY conspiracy theory when I have only discussed the Official Conspiracy Theory. Obviously, you are seeing what is not there. Difficult to hold a rational discussion in such unreality. The question now is, "Are you aware of how dumb they think you are?" and "Are you willing to drop the pretense that you know what is going on and start looking more objectively at the evidence?" Hopefully, you will know the difference. I wish I could say the same for you. Instead of cutting and pasting and repeating what others say you could try doing a bit of elementary research, or even as far as Islam is concerned talking to a real life Muslim (I assume there are some near you who) would at least tell you the basics of the different parts of the religion (and what the colours mean) before you put it on a website and try to represent it as 'fact' - and influencing other similarly ignorant and gullible people. I assume you will be pulling that page now???? I will leave it to your evidence and argumentation as here presented to do that. The discussion itself can be informative showing how circuitous logic, refusal to confront the issues with objectivity, and arguing/debating to score pointless "points" instead of searching for truth honestly can obscure the truth and lend support to total oppression, depopulation, and satanic ritual abuse of whole populations on a scale never even imagined by most people. Thanks, Thanks for the demonstration, Jon. AAH
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"Ibn
Athir (2nd vol., p. 83) writes that when the Prophet
handed over his green banner to Ali bin Abu Talib
during the battle of Khaibar, he proceeded towards
the fort. On that occasion, Ali had worn a red sheet
on his body. 
