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Zionist lawyer Alan Dershowitz advocates democratic control of torture
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Alan Dershowitz Interview, March 31, 2004
MARK DAVIS: Alan Dershowitz, welcome to Dateline. Thank you. Let's talk the specifics here. What forms of torture are you advocating? ALAN DERSHOWITZ, LAW PROFESSOR, HARVARD UNIVERSITY: I don't advocate torture at all. I am opposed to torture. I hope it's never, ever used by Australia or any democracy. But I'm a realist and I think it will be used if we ever had a ticking bomb terrorist case, if somebody were caught and had information that could be extracted from him and save hundreds of thousands of lives. Democracy demands that if we have to make tragic choices, we make them openly and with accountability and create legal restrictions to control their use. MARK DAVIS: So you're suggesting under certain circumstances it should be formalised or legalised in some form? ALAN DERSHOWITZ: I would put it a little differently. As a prerequisite for ever being able to use any kind of rough interrogation techniques, we should get legal authorisation, either from parliament or from top ranking executive officials, there should be accountability so that in a democracy people can be held responsible for their decisions. [How does making legal authorization a requirement going to change the practice if some interrogators could keep it just as secret as they do now? How does "legal authorisation" make it any more moral or ethical?] MARK DAVIS: Well, you're putting a lot of faith in top ranking officials or even parliament for that matter as to how they apply torture, or other methods. ALAN DERSHOWITZ: No quite the opposite. I'm putting a lot of faith in the people so that top executives and parliamentarians can't act in secret. What I worry about terribly is what's happening in the United States. Our President is able to have complete deniability and say "Torture, no, we don't use torture." But low ranking officials off the record are telling the 'Wall Street Journal', the 'Washington Post', the 'New York Times' and 'Atlantic Monthly, that in fact rough interrogation techniques, totally illegal under American law, are being used secretly and with deniability. ["Rough interrogation techniques" is an Orwellian misapplication of language.] MARK DAVIS: Well, if we're to do this openly under the right circumstances, if we're to formalise this, what type of torture are you imagining? ALAN DERSHOWITZ: Well, what I would imagine, I'm not advocating, what I would imagine is non-lethal torture. What I talked about in my book, for example, was a sterilised needle underneath the nail causing excruciating pain but no permanent damage. Whatever is extracted as the result of that would not be believed, it would have to be self-proving. This was done in the Philippines not so long ago where somebody was tortured into providing information and they didn't believe it but the information turned out to be true. It was self-proving. He took them to the place. [Since psychological trauma is just as debilitating and physical trauma, how can a primary means of mind control to be seen as benign?] MARK DAVIS: Can we just stay for a moment on this, I mean it's quite extraordinary. Needles under the fingernails? ALAN DERSHOWITZ: That's right. MARK DAVIS: Anything else? ALAN DERSHOWITZ: No, I mean what I'm talking about is a choice, a terrible choice of evils. It's not as bad as execution, and many countries in the world including the United States, are prepared to execute people. In Australia, you have the right to shoot and kill in self-defence, you also have the right to shoot and kill fleeing felons, why are we so squeamish about causing a little bit of pain in order to prevent the deaths of thousands of people. That's my question. [The insistence on the making a terrible choice of evils hides the potential of deeper analysis and insight into options than normally proposed.] MARK DAVIS: OK, I'm not being squeamish, sir, quite the contrary. I'm actually suggesting what are you - I mean you're a Harvard law professor, people take you very seriously. I hope so. You're not a shock jock. What other methods, in your opinion, are appropriate? I saw one interview drilling the teeth, drilling teeth, I saw in an interview. ALAN DERSHOWITZ: I'm not prepared - no, no, no, I'm not prepared to say any of these methods are acceptable, I'm against all of these methods. What I'm suggesting is if a country were to use any methods of this kind, then it should be subjected to democrat control. I'm not prepared to recommend any methods because I'm opposed to the use of torture. I'm saying that torture would be used. In the United States, for example, let me tell you what's going on now. People are being put in uncomfortable positions, extremes of heat and cold are being applied to them, they're being shackled to the walls and as one official said a little bit of smacky face is going on. If we're going to do that or if we're going to put needles under people's nails, I want to see judicial approval of that. I want to see legislative approval of that. If a legislature or a judge is not permitted to do it then we shouldn't do it. [These statements by Dershowitz begin to unmask the meaning of "democracy" in the mind of the agents of the New World Order.] MARK DAVIS: Let's have the judicial approval but I saw one quote of yours, "I want more painful, I want maximal pain and minimal lethality." You don't want it to be permanent but you want it to be excruciating, intense and immediate. ALAN DERSHOWITZ: I don't want it to happen at all. What I'm saying is if people are going to use any kind of torture, then it should not be lethal, it should not cause permanent harm, that's the kind of issue that should be debated in a democracy. Right now, this kind of thing is going on and we don't know about it. We're told it doesn't exist so let's surface it. [Trauma is frequently used in mind control and trauma-based mind control can be long-lasting and even permanent. Is that supposed to be OK?] MARK DAVIS: Is it going on? I mean you're talking... Absolutely. ..in an American context? Are needles under fingernails in America, are teeth being drilled in America, is excruciating pain being caused in America? ALAN DERSHOWITZ: Excruciating pain is being caused in America, fingernails and teeth are being drilled in Jordan and in Egypt and in the Philippines and who knows what's going on in many other parts of the world? MARK DAVIS: Well, exactly who should we be torturing if the circumstances require it? ALAN DERSHOWITZ: Nobody should be tortured. You might ask me who will be tortured, who will be tortured is if somebody were caught and clearly established to be a terrorist and he had information that there was a dirty bomb planted in Sydney Harbour or there was a biological weapon planted in Canberra and it could kill hundreds of thousands of people. That's the kind of person who would in fact be tortured in any democracy in the world today and the only question is if it were to happen, is it worse to have it happen secretly without accountability, or is it worse to bring it out from under the table and let the public see what its government officials are doing to save their lives. That's my question. [Maybe we could put it on TV so the whole "democracy" can see it. Dershowitz is revealing what "democracy" is REALLY about.]] MARK DAVIS: Well, are you suggesting legislative change in this regard then? ALAN DERSHOWITZ: If Australia ever feels the need to engage in this kind of extreme tactic, then it should have either legislative or judicial oversight. It shouldn't simply be left to a low ranking police official with higher government officials winking their eye, denying it and claiming it never has happened. That's the worse thing in a democracy to do it and deny it. [How is torture performed openly better than torture in secrecy? Torture is evil absolutely and pragmatism leads to open torture and the destruction of the society's moral foundation. This leads inevitably to the amorality told in the Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion that many Zionists dismiss.] MARK DAVIS: Should we be preparing ourselves? Should our legislators and our courts be preparing ourselves for this? ALAN DERSHOWITZ: First I think academics and the public have to think about it, which is why I wrote my book 'Why Terrorism Works', which includes a chapter on the choice of evils, the terrible choice of evils that democracies might face. To begin this debate about accountability over the use of extreme methods and second, if it ever becomes necessary to use these methods, and I hope it never will, we then have to have public debate and we have to have legislative or judicial action, yes. MARK DAVIS: Have you been meeting with Australian politicians on this trip? ALAN DERSHOWITZ: I have, but this subject has not come out. MARK DAVIS: So what ideas are you discussing with Australian politicians? ALAN DERSHOWITZ: I've just been talking generally about how to balance civil liberties and terrorism issues such as national ID cards, visas, other methods of control, the uses of intelligence, tighter border regulation, security at airports, that kind of thing. MARK DAVIS: Just lastly, your views on Guantanamo Bay, is this part of your vision for the future if this war on terror continues? ALAN DERSHOWITZ: I'm adamantly opposed to what's going on in Guantanamo Bay. I wrote the first article in a major American newspaper against military tribunals. I'm against the long-term detention, I'm against the argument that Guantanamo Bay is not part of America and I hope that the United States Supreme Court will strike down current Bush policies regarding Guantanamo Bay. I think everybody in Guantanamo Bay should have immediate access to council and immediate access to judicial determination as to what their status is under international law. MARK DAVIS: All right, Alan Dershowitz thanks again for your time. ALAN DERSHOWITZ: Thank you. 
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Professor
Alan Dershowitz of Harvard Law School has been described by Newsweek
as "the nation's most peripatetic civil-liberties lawyer and one of its
most distinguished defenders of individual rights." It is often said
that the world changed after September 11 and so it seems did one of
America's most renowned civil liberties lawyers Alan Dershowitz. He's
now calling for tougher laws in the war on terror - ID cards, new powers
of arrest and detention and, most controversially, legislation to
legalise torture. He's in Australia putting his views and was in
Canberra today meeting a swag of politicians. Mark Davis spoke with him
earlier from Dateline's Canberra studio.
Queen
Victoria
